I hate you guys.

Off to curry favor before my golden God.

What did I do? DX

You? Not much.

Ryu Hayabusa vs Kakashi wuld be interestng. Or any Naruto character for that amtter, but those two are closest age wise, and Ide guess skill level. Id kind of want to say kakashi, since he seems a bit more tactical, compare to the rather brute force methods of the Hayabusa clan.

Kakashi is a better tactician, but Ryu does outclass him in speed and strength; however, I'd like to think that hax like Kamui and the Sharingan (urgh) would tilt the fight in Kakashi's favor.

Hmm...I was under the impresion they would be comperable physicaly wise...then again, I guess Ryu Hunts giant demons as a job, so he's probably preaty buff.

Well, actually, since Naruto's recent power hike you could probably argue that Kakashi is in the same ballpark. :/ I don't know.

I know right. All dem Shonens, hiking up power levels near the end.

Actually, we are seeing Madara vs the First, which is also a preaty epic battle. Now, to go back and read up the Naruto chapters << >>

Naruto has been getting plain effing crazy as of late.

I actually miss those days in the past, when it was more about strategy and trickery rather than just spamming 'Flare' and trying to outdo the opponent in terms of collateral.

William Shatner vs David Tenant in the delivery of Hamlet's "To Be or Not to Be" soliloquy.

Which would have the most poignant emotion? Whose face would echo that pain? Whose voice would be the most divine?

Cumberbatch crushes them both under the weight of his voice and stands the undisputed master of the English-Branch Soliloquy Society.

Okay so I'm too lazy to comment on any of the other fights so i'll throw out a few suggestions of my own and some reasoning because my posts will only be every 5 or so pages




Kumagawa vs. Gilgamesh <_____<

Gonna put some spoilers on this one just so I don't spoil parts of the series.

SPOILER: Click to show

Spoiler
So putting aside my very subtle *insert coughing here* fanboyism for Kumagawa. I do think that Gilgamesh would win in a fight just because a large part of Kumagawa's character is that he will do everything he can to ensure that he will lose in some way. So assuming we can put this aside I would have to give say Kumagawa would win, though it could still be up in the air. While Gil has every weapon ever made, Kumagawa can recover from any injury fatal or otherwise with no effort. Plus he beat one character who had 12,858,051,967,633,865 different powers that she was proficient in using. Then he managed to one shot an exact clone of that same person.

So now for a match up that won't make me write a whole paragraph to explain it >>

Medaka vs. Gilgamesh

One the one hand Gilgamesh has every weapon ever. On the other hand Medaka's power can be summed up as "Anything you can do, I can do perfectly" So I have no idea who would win this one.




So for a different type of match up. Who is able to make a character death more painful and hard hitting? (I don't think this one should be in spoilers but i'm gonna put it in just in case)

SPOILER: Click to show

Spoiler
George R.R. Martin vs. Joss Whedon

For this one I have to give it to GRRM. If your caught up with the show or the books you should know why.

And one more because I probably won't post on here for another five more pages

So who will win the father of the year award?

Tywin Lannister vs. Ikari Gendo

I have no idea who would win this one. They are both such great examples that we should all aspire too

Jun 28, 2013 4:29:16 GMT -8 @thecrazyanbu said:

Okay so I'm too lazy to comment on any of the other fights so i'll throw out a few suggestions of my own and some reasoning because my posts will only be every 5 or so pages

You could just quote me when you're next available? I'm more than willing to keep the debate alive, especially if no one else is well-versed in both Fate and Medaka Box.

I'll address your match-ups when I have time! I'll either edit this post or make a new one.

That works. Though I will admit that I don't know that much about Fate

I don't know much about Medaka Box. That's what you're here for. >_>

So could you give a good description of Gilgamesh's abilities then?

Yeah, sure. I'll skim over what's worth taking into consideration.

Gonna start by nitpicking: Gilgamesh doesn't simply own every weapon. He owns every prototypical model that stems from humanity, regardless of its era --  this means he owns every shield, every suit of armor, and every Noble Phantasm inherent to those items. He has the Vimana, an aircraft alleged to move at the speed of thought armed with full bays of nuclear warheads, and an unnamed spaceship (lololol ancient Sumerian USS Enterprise) capable of crossing light-years in seconds; to cut to the chase, the gist behind the Gate of Babylon is that if it's something that mankind has made, is making, or will make, it'll be found there.

This lends itself to a lot of conjecture, so I'll stick with what the Gate is confirmed to possess:

• Caladbolg, a sword that may twist space as it is fired  
  
• Durandal, a supposedly indestructible blade that we don't care about
• Gae Bolg, a honing spear that detonates on impact
• The prototype of said spear purpoted to reverse causality in that it will not miss the heart
• Gram, a sword that generate a seering light capable of atomizing the target
• Merodach, supposedly more powerful than Gram
  
• Harpe, a scythe whose wounds cannot be regenerated from by supernatural means
• Vajra, a weapon of the gods that projects lightning
• Half a dozen weapons each capable of leveling entire mountains
  
• A sickle that strikes no matter how he swings it; drains life force, doesn't deal physical damage
  
• Armor and various shields that can repel some of the most powerful spells
  
• Sword that covers the target in ice if they happened to be in the general direction it's swung at regardless of whether it is dodged
  
• Yet another sword that can twist its blade to strike the target
• The Chain of Heaven, whose efficacy depends on the target's Divinity; not a factor here
  
• Unnamed Noble Phantasm that allows him to retrieve all the above once they have been fired
• The best wine ever, mongrel.
  

So now we get to Ea, his original Noble Phantasm, and believe me when I say that Kumagawa is not regenerating if he is struck by it in full -- this is a ''sword'' that cleaves the concept of space/time in that the rifts it spawns draw in and pulverize the opposition with a force likened to be the antithesis of genesis, at least in the vein that it ''returns'' creation to nonexistence. It is a weapon that does not need to be aimed, simply because it can target the entire world -- in Nasu's words, anyway, though it has canonically collapsed dimensions.

Worth noting Gilgamesh can apply all of the above simultaneously, and there's a boatload of feats I haven't addressed because THAT IS A LOT OF WEAPONS. How it stacks up to Kumagawa's reality warping, I'm not entirely too sure -- I'll leave that to you, Crazy.

I've already made an EA joke...

So I guess i'll get into Kumagawa's abilities then. Technically this isn't everything that he has but these seemed like the most relevant.

1. All Fiction - His main power. To put it simply using this he's able to warp anything into nothing. This not only includes physical objects but also concepts such as color or memory. So using this he can recover from nearly any attack. Plus even if someone kills him without him having time to react it automatically works to bring him back. He does have to hold back when using it because if he isn't careful he is able to destroy the world. The only apparent shortcomings for it are that he can't completely destroy another minus power nor can he reverse something that he has made into nothing.
2. Bookmaker - Another one of his main powers, this power puts someone down to his level in all aspects. So if they were hit by it they would be on Kumagawa's level in terms of body, spirit, technique, intellect and talent.
3. Unskilled - This one wasn't really defined too well but what it seems to do is put a time limit on things (i think). What Kumagawa did with it was combine it with All Fiction so something that he erased would only be erased for 3 minutes.
4. Having lots and lots of screws - This one technically isn't stated to be a power but Kumagawa does use it really often. The size's vary from regular sized to bigger than a person.
5. Analyzing - Also not really a power but another one of his main skills. Kumagawa is able to find the weaknesses in anything. This includes physical things but also conceptual things like emotional weaknesses or holes in an argument (quite useful for trolling people too).
6. Lack of Presence - This is more or less a result of him using All Fiction on his own aura. It makes him hard to notice. Not sure how relevant it would be in a fight but i suppose it would be useful for trying to catch someone off guard. 


So I suppose that a large part of the match up would depend on how their powers effect each other. For starters out of the weapons you listed I think Ea and Harpe (and the wine) would be the powers that Kumagawa couldn't just reverse. Plus it is also up in the air on how well Gil's shields would be able to block Kumagawa's powers (such as if he used All Fiction on the shields/armor themselves). However how much Kumagawa's All Fiction effects Gil's weapons is also a matter of debate. On one hand they are similar to Pluses and Minuses but on the other hand they are actual physical objects. Overall I think Kumagawa's All Fiction could erase them from reality which would be one of the major game changers in Kumagawa's favor. There is also the use of Unskilled. I'm not sure if he could use that on Ea to undo anything that is affected by it but he was able to use Unskilled with All Fiction which is a pretty similar ability. Finally there is the use of Bookmaker. You mentioned that Gil was impossible to corrupt so i'm not sure if or to what extent it would effect him. Assuming it did though I suppose it would only effect his body, technique and intellect but not his spirit. Assuming that is the case I'm fairly certain it would either restrict or outright stop his ability to use his weapons.

There is also the fact that Kumagawa has fought Anshin'in who probably had as many powers as Gilgamesh did and won. So while Gilgamesh has a lot more varied powers than Kumagawa does, Kumagawa would be able to handle that.


Overall I think the big decider on this match is to what extent their powers can affect the other. If Kumagawa's powers can affect Gil as much as I think they can, then I would have to give the match to Kumagawa. But if they aren't very effective at affecting Gil then I don't think Kumagawa would win.

1. All Fiction - His main power. To put it simply using this he's able to warp anything into nothing. This not only includes physical objects but also concepts such as color or memory. So using this he can recover from nearly any attack. Plus even if someone kills him without him having time to react it automatically works to bring him back. He does have to hold back when using it because if he isn't careful he is able to destroy the world. The only apparent shortcomings for it are that he can't completely destroy another minus power nor can he reverse something that he has made into nothing.

So I guess the main draw of this ability, here, is going to be whether or not Kumagawa can erase Gilgamesh.

Something to note, though, is that the statement regarding planetary destruction came from Kumagawa himself, a pathological liar -- if we're to take character affirmations to heart, all the King would need is an anti-Kumagawa Noble Phantasm.

And Gilgamesh would have that.

2. Bookmaker - Another one of his main powers, this power puts someone down to his level in all aspects. So if they were hit by it they would be on Kumagawa's level in terms of body, spirit, technique, intellect and talent.

I think we discussed this in part over Skype; the mechanics of this ability lend to the belief that Gilgamesh should literally be capable of shrugging it off. He was subjected to the Nasuverse equivalent of the devil's best efforts to corrupt him, and effectively told the mental pollution to ''piss off, and shore up thrice as many forces.''

5. Analyzing - Also not really a power but another one of his main skills. Kumagawa is able to find the weaknesses in anything. This includes physical things but also conceptual things like emotional weaknesses or holes in an argument (quite useful for trolling people too).

Gil can do this, too. He has a mind-reading Noble Phantasm that had him deduce how Shirou was applicating his powers before the latter had even begun to conceptualize his approach.

As to whether Kumagawa can erase Noble Phantasms -- my guess would be no, if removing minuses is impossible for him. Kumagawa would have to erase Gil himself, or at least erase him to the best of his ability (if this is even in his realm of doing), since the Gilgamesh we see in Fate is constrained by the servant container of Archer; that is to say, he is significantly weaker than he was in life, and his actual self must remain logged in the omniversal Throne of Heroes.

Worth noting that most, if not all the weapons Gil bothers to fire out the Gate of Babylon, are conceptual in nature; this is especially true for Ea, whose existence was so absolute it predates Archetype-Earth's authority and could not begin to be reconciled with the Nasuverse's laws. It was explicitly labelled an impossibility to analyze, let alone affect: in short, Ea is loyal to its husbando.

For what it's worth, Gilgamesh has moved and launched weapons at speeds exceeding 15000 m/s. You can thank the VN for that number. That's... that's fast. I'm not sure Kumagawa can match his speed.

Also, wasn't All Fiction fading over time and didn't Kumagawa lose it? I'm not clear on this. Obviously, it isn't all powerful -- it's been staved off in multiple occasions -- but can you clarify as to how?

I'm no expert on Kumagawa, but in the last few minutes I've spent trying to figure anything out on him, I think I have a pretty good idea at how laughably outmatched he still really is.

First, we obviously must contend on the level of personal appearance, which is to say, how either views themselves - a strong mental self-image is what differenciates losers from winners! Speaking of, this Kumagawa chap appears to think of himself as the very King of Losers! Seems to me it says more than enough concerning his character, whereas Gilgamesh is two things immediately: King of Heroes, first, and second, scornful to the point of demolition those who would dare call themselves Kings in his presence; no mongrel should seek to elevate itself to the realm of Gods, even if they acknowledge their groveling with the title 'King of Losers'.

The second point that should be considered is each one's physical status and limitation. Granted, Kumagawa has an otherworldly constitution, taking and shrugging off damage severe enough to hospitalize your standard mongrel - though how much of this is given strength by his powers, to be discussed later, is questionable - but it still matches not the Golden King. Here is a man who casually withstands blows fueled by the hopes and dreams of an entire kingdom, and this only when he actually bothers to take the hit! And it should be noted this is when he is in his accepted, commonly documented 'weakened' form, summoned forth by the Holy Grail as a living miracle to war as a micro-avatar of his true power.

Briefly, let us touch on 'what it takes to kill' the combatants. Yes, Kumagawa is a formidable opponent at least in so far as his capacity to take damage is demonic at best, but it must be noted that not only 'can' he be killed, but in fact he dies semi-regularly, apparently for arrogance concerning the applications of his All Fiction, else he'd have died before he acquired this most formidable ability and would not have come back to life. Therefore, while he may take damage outside the realm of your standard man and survive, there is still a line not far off which Kumagawa cannot cross. Gilgamesh, on the other hand, required a veritable slew of injuries on an epic-class scale simply to smite his avatar - these wounds being reflected as an arm being removed, having a wound scored deeply into his skull, and being emptied of his vitals and nonvitals alike by the malicious, drawing powers of the Holy Grail... and still he came on, unwilling to finally die until a masterstroke temporarily drove the energy from his body, sucking him into a vortex of nothingness, void of mana and physical energy with which to use for his most powerful weapon - and yet at this point, out of sheer will, he could still summon up the 'meager' reserves acquired by feasting on ORPHANS with which to use his most trusted, versatile of weapons - which he had already made exceptional use of.

Next, we approach the 'powers' of each, and this is where things can become somewhat hectic. The first and immediate power of Kumagawa's that should be considered is his All Fiction, for it is his greatest weapon, despite his semi-illusion screws being his favored. Well, we say weapon, but in reality, it is remarkably restricted when one considers it's actual combat uses - to my recollection, All Fiction cannot take life, and anything that roughly equates to the power of a Minus is also incapable of being totally fictionalized. It should be noted that this makes a victim of his second Minus, Bookmark, mostly immune to the most lethal applications of All Fiction, as Bookmark turns the victim into a Minus, if only temporary. Of course, that is besides the point - as has been argued before, this is not an ability that would affect Gilgamesh. Therefore, the poor kid would be restricted to attempting to cripple the King with specifically-targeted All Fiction usage, as well as get near enough to do battle using his screws.

Now we speak of the power of Gilgamesh, which is less speaking of his own power as much as it is the power of his arsenal. Put simply, if it was crafted by man, conceptualized by man, wielded by man or in fact at all belongs to this Earth, he owns it. Not only it, but the conceptualized, ideal 'prototype' of it - Vimana, his flying craft, travels roughly at the speed of thought, wields unpeered nuclear weaponry in it's bays, and is frankly a moving miracle on it's own terms. Submarines, even space-worthy vessels does the King of Heroes have at his beck and call, not to mention weapons myriad, weapons spoken of through the very ages and proclaimed the weapons of kings - all of these things originate from the armory of the King. Brionac, the legendary spear guaranteed to pierce any heart; Gram, the dragon-slaying sword that manifested light itself as it's blade; these and more, so many more, are willing to come flying from the sky at any angle to destroy the object of their King's ire. The Gate of Babylon would open so wide, it would be forgivable to mistake the sight for the sun rising all over again before steel came raining down.

Now, again, I do not know well the power of Kumagawa, but from what I have read, his power is limited in one key regard: he cannot focus on many things at a time with All Fiction, only one, even as a concept. Rather than, in one example I saw, focus on erasing 'color', he had to restrict himself to whole colors at a time. Granted, this does not seem a massive distinction, but it is important in that it shows he must be given time to concentrate. As well, it is a known limitation that he cannot fully Fictionalize 'Minuses', which we mentioned a few paragraphs previous - to claim that these conceptual weapons, the very prototypes of weapons crafted throughout all humanity's days, do not rival such power is laughable at best. Assuming the best Kumagawa could do was take away the 'flight' of each weapon, it takes as little as simply collecting his weapons all over again and resuming the volley for Gilgamesh to get over losing the single most devastating 'fictionalize' Kumagawa could do. Otherwise, he would need to focus on stripping each individual weapon of their individual qualities, and even then, at some 15000m/s, a rock alone would surely suffice.

Now, all of this would serve at least to incapacitate Kumagawa, of that there is no doubt, and possibly even kill him - but as has been made clear, Kumagawa may die, but he does not STAY dead. That is simply outside his scope of ability so long as All Fiction is a power he retains, and that is not something that can be denied... except by veritably undoing All Fiction at it's core.

This is where the greatest tool in Gilgamesh's arsenal must once again be mentioned - and tool it must be called, because Ea is so far removed from a weapon to be laughable. In fact, Ea's true form is not a sword, though this is the form it adopts when applied AS a weapon; Ea is a key, and what it unlocks is not the 'undoing' of creation or the 'destroying' of creation. Ea is in fact the 'returning' of creation, to that point of genesis where there was nothing, and relegating that which is caught within to what it was at that time - summarily, nothing. Kumagawa would not die - he would be returned to the primordial soup, not made forgotten but instead simply unmade, All Fiction and all. As effectively immortal as All Fiction may make him, Kumagawa cannot defend against Enuma Elish; indeed, little can, instead having to sacrifice itself as a very existence in order to appease the hungry force of creation.

The fight would be entertaining to be sure, but in the end, in the eyes of the proud golden King, a mongrel will only ever be able to grovel in the dirt before it's time to pass from this world comes.

ITT: the King hath decreed that all traps be removed from the chamber, that all participants herein shall gather into either a circular or squared position, and gaze longingly upon His visage until such a time as the mighty Gilgamesh can be made to triumph over all of fiction.

Jun 30, 2013 10:05:10 GMT -8 @shiranui said:

ITT: the King hath decreed that all traps be removed from the chamber, that all participants herein shall gather into either a circular or squared position, and gaze longingly upon His visage until such a time as the mighty Gilgamesh can be made to triumph over all of fiction.

Until Superman walks in, flexes, causes a shock wave of unfeasible power and breaks the king's spine. To which Superman would reply.. "Oops."





I kid don't hurt me!

Gil blocks the shockwave with enough Batman merchandise.

Besides, he lived through the Holy Grail warping the majority of his vitals away, and this he did one-armed and with a sword all but embedded twixt the eyes -- a broken spine is what Gil calls foreplay.

Also you're just mad Gil can crush Batman's skull between thumb and forefinger.

What about Gilgamesh vs himself?

Lol, no I'm not mad. I was just kidding, as I said XD

Jun 30, 2013 11:39:16 GMT -8 @mashedpotatoes said:

What about Gilgamesh vs himself?

Perpetual sword-pissing contest. Gil wins, everybody else loses.

Or, if you want the canonical response: it ends in boy love.

Jun 30, 2013 11:57:56 GMT -8 @shiranui said:

Or, if you want the canonical response: it ends in boy love.

I approve of this.

Kumagawa DID have All Fiction weakened, but it was restored to full power later on, or pretty close to it. That aside, given Gilgamesh's sheer ego (read: telling the embodiment of all of humanity's evil to sod off), Kumagawa probably couldn't erase him. Similarly, it is also probably unlikely that Book Maker would work on him either.

As for his Noble Phantasms? With the exception of Ea and Enkidu, Kumagawa could probably "fictionalize" his other weapons, if only because of the way All Fiction works, where it's effect is deteriorated based on the strength of feelings, and it's fairly obvious that Gilgamesh doesn't care about the stuff in his vault, at least as much as the others.


The fact that Enkidu can't be made non-existent brings up the obvious solution. Gilgamesh could win simply by binding him, and keep him alive.

...I have no chance of winning this lottery.

ELEVEN PAGES!?!?!