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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2013 1:12:07 GMT -8
I think the point trying to be made is that what you're describing is a several-hundred-person verbal melee trying to get this and that down on paper, not the six-to-fifteen body parlay/governance that would have gone down. One thing to say it's something everybody is involved in, and another to say it affects everybody.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2013 1:13:42 GMT -8
So you approach your Captain and have them pitch in on your behalf when the deliberations commence.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2013 1:25:01 GMT -8
My apologies, what Cain said.
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Post by Mallach Dirson on Nov 11, 2013 12:02:05 GMT -8
While I admit by my history it does sound like Malik single handily dealt with this treaty, however I wouldn't say he did. A figurehead perhaps, but he'd do it the same way I'm doing it now, which isn't all by his lonesome. He's been getting the opinions of Captains and non-captains alike (which I have and will be doing <<) before actually making anything official. I'd like to think he'd have done the same thing in the past.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2013 10:54:43 GMT -8
Fair enough.
So, to rekindle the discussion: what's the verdict on turning over half of one's yield to the Gotei? I'm certain I've asked this in the past, hence why I'm under the impression that citizens can decline the Shinigami's services and refuse to forfeit an excessive 50% of their stocks.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2013 12:03:20 GMT -8
I agree, it sounds excessive, but it's based on relative populations and that Shinigami don't produce much. I asked Mhairyn "Aryn" Dirson about populations and she said it was something like 60:40 then, Shinigami being the 60, and closer to 50:50 now. Sadly I can't find that conversation now.
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Post by Mhairyn "Aryn" Dirson on Nov 13, 2013 17:42:31 GMT -8
That's how I understood it at least. Seems pretty fair, though it could have been more or less depending on the situation.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 6:02:12 GMT -8
While I can understand viewing the numbers as probably half and half, I think there're some spots where the indicators point toward the Rukon wildly outnumbering the Shinigami, if not regularly then at least more often than not.
From the first paragraph in the Rukon Citizen Faction Info, the Rukon numbers are - or at least were - so incredibly huge that they, with no obvious Shinigami assistance, cleared the Hollow out of three concentric circles of land so large as to house, feed and work by everybody's admittance at least as many bodies as were within Seireitei. While we grant that this occurs before the Shinigami had Zanpakuto or what had you, we note that all of these prototypical Citizens essentially set the boundary with their efforts, a boundary that modern Shinigami nor Citizens have been able to push back.
Further, these three Rukon areas are all judged as needing Shinigami protection - they are watched over by one division of the Gotei, who are so thin spread in the first District as is that they can only provide 'meager' coverage at best in the second, and little to none in the third, with no regular patrols in the fourth.
We also keep in mind that these Districts the early Citizens cleared out include an extensive mine network, and regardless were for quite some time defended by a watch composed of Citizens themselves.
How much time is hard to say, but it's clear by the spread of 'protection' that a good portion of the guard work is still composed of Citizens themselves. This, in exchange for amounts of goods argued to be in approximation of half a given land-owner's yield. If 'half' from each yield is enough to cover the lives of Citizens spread across three Districts - it is strongly implied that a good many live in each district, not only the 'living' district - and still presumably get out to the Fourth for those stragglers, and then ALSO be the primary food-source for the Seireitei, it strongly argues that there are more Citizens than Shinigami by a long shot, if only via farmland.
Another brief mention to the presumed number of the Citizens comes a bit further.
Rebellions presume numbers, because you can't have a good rebellion without numbers. And these numbers apparently stem primarily from the Third and Fourth Districts, a business district and pure wastelands respectively. Assume the march to Seireitei builds up numbers and there you have 'the fifth rebellion this century'. Ask how a rebellion is put down - take the snake's head and the impassioned masses lose their spirit. Shinigami can't route the Citizens totally - depend on them for food and other product, so putting them all to torch really puts a damper on negotiations. Good thing the Citizens don't have a central government to call to order for these crimes - a people as a whole can't be judged for the actions of a wild few, eh?
Seems to me, personally, that the numbers of Citizens is at least half-again that of Shinigami. My lust for even numbers says double, but I'm not so hard a bargain.
But to redress the question that keeps coming up - the 'half your yield to Seireitei' is optional, not compulsory, correct? Seems by the numbers we cook up, and also by the simple nature of how everything looks, that the primary portion of this deal was made in good faith - again based almost wholly on the fact that the Shinigami did not demand the Citizenry centralize into some form of government. Those who pay the toll get preferential guarding, and those who don't... don't. Makes sense here! Anything from anybody else?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 7:02:05 GMT -8
I'm inclined to agree with your first paragraph, though I believe that the issues of population and geography warrant their own discussion, one I think we need to have (unless the staff wish to dictate populations and dimensions) and so, if we have a general consensus, I would suggest opening dialogue on this topic in a separate thread.
As such, I pray you shall excuse my reply to your contribution until it is decided whether a separate discussion on this topic is to occur.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 7:49:25 GMT -8
Jesus all this deflection is getting annoying. A guy asks a question he wants an answer, not a 'well that's all good and nice now lets talk about this instead'. The first image of the three from the Plot and Settings is not to scale, but this one was, as I recall. So we see District 2 is roughly half again the size of the first, and 3 is about the size of 1+4. All together they form a size of stupidly-many times that of the Seireitei. Plot and Settings, the Dimensions never got specified, it just never came up. But we have this rough guide, and it means we don't need to sit down and waste time coming up with yield per capita, amounts that need to be generated to keep everybody fed, yadda yadda. KISS - keep it simple, stupid - and leave things to the imagination. We don't, never will, and never should need to actually go so far as to draft up full census reports on all Districts + Seireitei, it just isn't a good or fun idea - it leads to us trying to start a government that is doomed to fail from the start with no incentive beyond 'for teh lulz' to keep it running.
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Post by Bard "Dual-Strike" Alrikson on Nov 19, 2013 8:41:56 GMT -8
My ears are burning, so I'm going to weigh in on this as well. Jeff, it's a nice job, but I'm afraid I have to agree with Cain and Malik here. There are large holes that the original plotlines of this world never really filled. The Rukongai have no leadership, and as such, have no canon background to explain who signed the document. The Rukongai exists as a free society, a commune of farmers and laborers. One might suggest that the Rukongai thrives because of the business it does with the Seireitei, and that the Seireitei has returned that business with not only coin, but protection. There was never a need for a formal government among the Rukongai, and never a need for a formal contract. That the bargain was struck was good enough. An understandable decision for a new nation of people who still didn't know much about how such things work, but that is changing. There is a need NOW for a contract, but not then.
Yes, Sengoku does not feel he is qualified for the job of leading the Rukongai, but he doesn't see anyone else stepping up to take the reins. In his eyes, the Rukongai is on the verge of disaster, and needs to be marshaled and mobilized into its own nation, or city state, and begin governing itself. It's for this very reason that Sengoku is meeting with Malik. Such a contract may be needed when Malik and Sengoku are done deciding how they're going to do this, but there's not enough plot and history to really support this document, or give it any sort of authority. Since Sengoku intends to develop his own military/Police Force for the Rukongai, he would then have the means to enforce such a treaty. I guess what I'm trying to say is, why not drop the 1000nw contract, and start writing up the Rukongai Declaration of Independence, Constitution, or what-not. It would be put to far better use in context than a historical document that causes more questions than it answers.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2013 3:16:47 GMT -8
Thanks for finally joining in, but putting words in my mouth is a risky business there bucko, I'd take care with it.
I'm not currently stating there was no need for the document - whether or not there was a situation to draw it up I couldn't say, think I've argued the inability for it to be held up as a sort of legal document enough but that doesn't make me right, I know nothing about law, forget however we intend to do law here.
What I do wonder about is the perception that Sengoku and Malik seem to have that this is their right, however - a redraw of the contract, that is. Mal's gone on record as backtracking, saying he's gathering consensus from the others, so on so forth, but what's Sengoku's excuse? From your own words he doesn't feel fit to lead, and yet there he is, assuming he's the new Rukon Prez-o-dent. To whom did he speak to obtain this right? Right by strength? By 'because nobody said no'? You're talking like you're the sudden faction head when by all accounts you claim this right by what NPCs you control desire. I grant wholly that I haven't read as many recent threads as I'd like to have, but I'm moderately certain there wasn't a canvassing of the Rukon asking if congressman Sengoku had anybody's votes, if his appeals were in line with the general populations. By what right do Sengoku and Malik meet to discuss new policies that matter to the many, rather than their precious few?
Not to say I'm demanding posts be undone or anything, goodness knows characters don't need to play along with the letter of the law or what the players think, this is simply me asking questions.
Point is, this is a discussion. Discussion isn't furthere by saying 'hay guiz stop this isn't even worth the time we're just redoing it', because your desire to write up a new doctrine A: is not a guaranteed-to-pass event and B: does not negate the past. Yes, this does still have a tendency to leave questions hanging, but as with so many other questions, they can be left unanswered. Cover your ears and lalala a wizard did it, just like a wizard found the reiatsu-resistant stone that built up the Seireitei Wall but is used in literally nothing else, a wizard made sure that somehow the no-power-having Citizens did indeed murder-shove all the Hollow out of Districts 1-3, a wizard made the mountains unable to be surpassed or gave a coin-shaped reality stable climate.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2013 5:07:53 GMT -8
I believe that we really need to get numbers sorted. And this is why. This role play is pretty much based on the scarcity of resources. The Rukon Faction Information carries the following footnote. Sengoku has made a thread where he discusses overcrowding in the Rukongai. I believe it would be immensely helpful to know just how limited these resources are. How overcrowded is the Third? I don't even know how long it would take for Yoshiya to walk from his house to the farms in the morning! On many occasions I have found myself wanting SOME indication of numbers. I'm not asking for the exact numbers of populations, because for one that number would be pretty fluid, but honestly, a ball park figure would be useful. I don't recall any mention that the map you gave was to scale. The plot and settings thread has the following: I am not asking for something that was never intended, but for us to get done a task that is long overdue. It is peculiar how registration can be rather particular with numbers, but the setting as a whole does not. Honestly, this needs to be done! akatokiyami.proboards.com/post/55449 This post of yours would be completely fulfilled if we just had the numbers! Anyway, on compliance, I've said this before, and I've said this again. As far as I am aware, production in the first two districts has generally been treated as an oligopoly. And what happens in oligopolies? Firms collude. For this to work, all we need from the Rukons are the few guys in the first and second who produce stuff to agree to give half (or whatever if we get our populations down) to the Shinigami. We don't need every man woman and child to do that, because they are working for the producers, they aren't producing themselves. And that is how it can work. I'm not sure what you mean by optional or compulsory. I'd assume the oligopolies figure out themselves what is half. The Third Division don't care how it is split per firm, as long as they get half of total production. After all, if it were so then the Shinigami wouldn't even be supposed to be protecting the four districts, as districts three and four don't produce. If a Rukon Citizen who owns a logging company doesn't pay their due, they aren't answerable to the Shinigami, they are answerable to their fellow Rukons. So, the signatories have to be the heads of industry at this time. Simply because I can't think of anyone else. Why would they have the Shinigami protect the other districts? Simply because they contain both their labour and their markets. They benefit from their protection. A formal contract is necessary because honestly, I have no reason to see it born out of any other reason than necessity. The two cultures aren't on the most amicable terms, otherwise why did the citizens leave? I don't have any reason to believe the Rukon Citizens had any reason to trust the Shinigami, and so they darn well would have gotten the terms down on paper. This necessitated a whole reorganisation of the Shinigami, so certain elements in Seireitei would have wanted a formal document as well. Now, to address Cain's middle paragraph in his latest post, honestly whilst I agree with you, since this is occurring in the present, I really think that Sengoku's authority is something to be worked out in-character.
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Post by Bard "Dual-Strike" Alrikson on Nov 20, 2013 7:59:08 GMT -8
Cain, of COURSE Sengoku doesn't have any authority. This "wizard" of yours didn't bother to put anyone in charge of the Rukongai that could GIVE him Authority. He has general support and approval, but nothing to actually give to the people to make them want him as a leader. I can't believe I have to explain this, but he's going to Malik merely to talk about setting up a Rukongai run defensive force. He may not be qualified to lead the entirety of the Rukongai people, but he's more than qualified to lead a small army. He's not going to Malik saying "Hey, I'm gonna be the king of the Rukongai, izat kewl?" No, Sengoku is going to Malik to request his and the Shinigami's help in training an army. Yes, I have further plans, but at the moment, all I want to do is get Malik's help in building the Rukongai's military. I do this because no one else was doing anything with this plot, this world. We sit around all day and have threads about the fucking weather, and fishing! These are nice, but they don't tell a very interesting story, they don't keep a plot going, and they don't draw in new players. We were going nowhere, stagnating, so if you don't like that I've just "grabbed power", then fucking do something about it. Make a Rukongai government that I have to answer to, give me some damn opportunities to curry more favor with the people, I don't give a damn, just do SOMETHING that isn't an asinine, trivial thread that goes nowhere and does nothing. Just don't expect me to sit around and accept the status quo. I was bored out of my skull and considering giving up on this place before Malik and I began working on this project, and you can't deny that Sengoku's ambitions have spurred on more threads than just the ones he's been in.
As to your wizard creating the world, well, Jeff has a valid point. It's a very, very ill defined world. If we're insisting on a coin shaped world, then is it really so hard to figure out how much distance lies between each district? Is it so wrong to want to have hard facts to work with? I understand you can't cover every angle, but why not let the players work with it a little? Obviously you don't have the time for such an endeavor, but why not let Jeff do some numbers work, figure out how big the Rukongai should be, and how many people should be in it? If he's dedicated enough to drag a legal, binding contract into the mix, then hell, let him go the whole nine yards. Your Wizard left a lot of plot holes that need filling, and since god knows (I hope) the last thing anyone really wants is another god damned reboot, why not let Jeff fill some of them in?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2013 10:38:37 GMT -8
It's nice to have a character that generates role-play, and it's a valid complaint that casual topics are not altogether very interesting, but ''spurring on more threads'' is likewise immaterial when they don't lead anywhere in turn -- and they by and large haven't. Taking the initiative is fine, good on you for getting ''somewhere,'' but let's not pretend you don't have a host of opportunities to curry favor among characters that are just as suited to address military quandaries. I'm not saying you haven't done enough as is -- I'm saying this isn't Cain's burden to bear.
You are approaching the pseudo-leader of a faction that flirts with dissent, and requesting that they assist you in constructing your own personal task force when the Rukongai suffers no shortage of experts themselves; that's hardly a milestone, and you can forget about impression when you start asserting that any guy playing seigi no mikata has the power to make might right -- you can't enforce a treaty such as this one, because there is nothing penned for you to enforce. Farmland owner decides Shinigami protection is worth half his yields --> Shinigami defend them. Farmland owner decides that his harvests are not worth the Shinigami's services, too bad for the Gotei, and too bad for the farmer if anything happens to his crops. Yes, declining nonetheless gives you some degree of protection by virtue of contiguity, but nothing prohibits the Gotei from purchasing their produce like everyone else instead of demanding ludicrous sums over a poorly executed service that not all corporate powerhouses even require. Likewise, nowhere is it implied the Shinigami can't wrench the goods themselves if security is indeed provided, and the producers hoard their stocks.
If the Shinigami run into a shortage of food, fucking finally. They have it coming. I know I'm no longer amused by these full-scale hack-'n-slash plot events wherein the good guys repel the villains, and some very real consequences -- such as starvation -- are handwaved away. I want to role-play an industrial battle of wits, which leads me to ''look at your citizen, Aki! Why aren't you doing something about it?''
Because injecting politics into anything on AK turns into this.
Also, there are no relevant oligopolistic colludes, and having Jeff mess with the map is pointless right now (for reasons that will become clear to you in the future, and others that should be pretty clear already just by taking a gander at this thread, but hey).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2013 11:10:10 GMT -8
I fail to see what's odd at all about requiring an individual to provide their character's dimensions and the dimensions of their weapons - both items that directly affect the potential health of all other characters in the vicinity - but not have defined the general area of a plot of land. Claiming that both are equally necessary seems somewhat ignorant, kinda like throwing oligopoly and collusion around but claiming to not understand the difference between compulsion and option.
You say having the population and stock yields of the Rukon and Seireitei available, as well as the sizes of their landmasses, would be helpful. I do not dispute the argument - I dispute the method. You don't measure Ireland's population based on the number of potato farms, you don't measure China's by how much tea it has, and you don't measure Soul Society's based on how much crop is 'half'. You brought this thing to the table and every attempt to look further into it is met with 'well we could but first we should have this other information' - then give that information. Don't wait for somebody else to do it, because the chief reason I haven't? I can't. I don't know who or what you're waiting on, but obviously this is something you are passionate about, so you shouldn't be waiting on a written invitation from the whole board to do what you want to do.
Do I view it as necessary? No. Is any of this about what I think? No. Jesus of the four people regularly saying anything here three are of the opposite opinion I am on that regard, so extrapolation tells you seventy five percent of the board is waiting on you to stop waiting for somebody to plead with you to throw them a bone, and just do it.
Katsu, I honestly can't believe I have to explain there's a difference between IC reasoning and how many shits I give for why people do the things they do. You want to start a faction/group/whatever of 'police' that do whatever YOU think is in the best interest of the Rukon, holy shit how little do I care, go for it and have a blast. But don't tell me you're only here to start an army in one breath, and with the next say this whole thing is pointless because you're going to write up a new agreement anyways. Because you did say that. And then you said you don't have the right or power to do that. So actually, take your cookie and go sit in the corner, kid, because you're making less sense here than I am.
Yeah, I know the 'wizard' left plot holes. That's the goddamn point of the wizard, the concept is a handwave, a 'it's this way because we literally did not take the time to write up any other explanation'. Don't you worry your pretty little head about the man behind the curtain, just bow before the floating head and carry on your merry way. I never once said my methods were perfect or beyond being fixed - this whole conversation is about fixing an aspect, after all.
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Post by Mhairyn "Aryn" Dirson on Nov 20, 2013 18:23:32 GMT -8
We're working on revamping the setting to where this [thread experience] won't be that huge of an issue, so I would rather no one else mess with that.
I'm not even sure where this topic stands right now in regards to what is actually being done with the mock-up or whatever you're calling it, but what I am suggesting right now is to use this as a base to go back to and then modify it when it comes time to redo or renew or ratify or whatever the plans between Malik and Katsu are so that Jeff's work was not pointless or 'stupid' or whatever you may feel it to be. I've half a mind to do a sort of contest to fill in these plot-holes anyway (like the myths and legends of AK past) since there's so much going on in this thread that isn't 100% on topic of: is this treaty acceptable.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2013 4:53:10 GMT -8
I don't know what's happening with this thing either, because discussion keeps getting blown off whenever we appear to be making progress.
So I'll keep this brief: it's acceptable insofar as agriculture isn't concerned, because I am still pretty darn sure (I had asked this exact question before) that forfeiting 50% of your stocks to the Shinigami is not an obligation. That's just staggering. If they want reliable sources, they can start purchasing farmland and grow their own crops by themselves, for themselves. Third Division already does it, Lord knows they just don't have enough tilth to work with.
In short, let's keep our fingers out of the oligopoly pie.
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Post by Mallach Dirson on Nov 27, 2013 21:11:25 GMT -8
I'd say 25% is more than enough to be agreed upon. Anything more, bought. I know not a lot to say but I've not a lot to add at this point.
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Post by Mhairyn "Aryn" Dirson on Dec 6, 2013 16:55:41 GMT -8
So....what's the status of this now?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2013 15:37:32 GMT -8
To get this back on track (though this may take ages)
I'm going to allow until 12:01 am AK time for people to post amendments in this thread. Amendments must be specific. Please post in one of the three ways, as appropriate
After that we will have 48 hours of discussion for each amendment, then after each 48 hour period we will have a 24 hour period of public voting. If the amendment achieves a simple majority (50% of all voters +1) then the proposed document shall be amended.
Once all the amendments have been discussed we shall have 72 hours of discussion on the document in its final form, before having a final 48 hour period of public voting.
If anyone has any special requests relevant to this document, such as extending discussion, or discussion to a specific area, they may make a single post arguing why they request this. If these requests are made during the initial period whilst we are accepting amendments then a 24 hour vote shall be held before the discussion of amendments on whether they should be considered.
If requests are made after this time they may request to a) Have a vote at the end of the next 24 hour vote, before the next period of 48 hours of discussion. This vote shall last 24 hours and require a simple majority.
or
b) Have a vote during the current period of discussion. If at least 24 hours remain in the current 48 hour period, then votes shall occur without an interrupt to discussion, and will require a simple majority. If less than 24 hours remain, then they will require both a simple majority, and that at least a third of those who have participated in the current round of discussion to vote.
Requests may be altered or denied at my discretion, or at the discretion of Frox or anyone she delegates, with Frox's word overruling mine.
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Post by Mhairyn "Aryn" Dirson on Dec 11, 2013 13:43:41 GMT -8
i might suggest waiting for the weekend instead of however much remains of your 48 hour limit
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2013 14:09:39 GMT -8
Do you mean for the initial acceptance of amendments? Anyway, this has been done, and I have extended final discussion to 72 hours and the vote to 48 hours
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2013 10:30:45 GMT -8
As no requests for amendment have been received, we shall move onto discussion of the present bill for a period of 72 hours, commencing now.
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Post by Mallach Dirson on Dec 16, 2013 13:15:02 GMT -8
You mean the one that we're working toward icly right nowish?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2013 13:27:05 GMT -8
No, the one that has existed for the past millennium.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2013 10:33:09 GMT -8
The time for deliberation has now closed.
We shall now enter into a 48 hour period of voting.
Please vote either Aye or Nay.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2013 10:33:22 GMT -8
Aye
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Post by Mallach Dirson on Dec 19, 2013 15:41:04 GMT -8
Aye or nay if we actually go through with it? Details man, they're important.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2013 15:54:49 GMT -8
I thought it was pretty obvious.
Do you approve of accepting this document into the canon of this world?
Aye if you think it should.
Nay if you disagree.
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