Something that has bugged me for quite some time is that we don't have the text of the agreement reached between the Rukons and the Shinigami in 1000nw, where they agreed to exchange goods for defence. This agreement is one of the cornerstones of the setting of the roleplay, and I believe it is essential that we know exactly what is in this agreement.

So I asked Frox about it, and she told me that I should write it myself, and then submit it to see what everyone thinks. So read below and say if you think anything should be added/changed/removed.

Just a few notes. First of all, this discussion is open to all members, and I would like contributions/feedback/questions from everyone.

Secondly, a small apology, I wrote this at like five in the morning, so its going to almost certainly be imperfect.

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The Millennial Agreement

Part 1

Preamble 

We, the people of the Rukongai and of Seireitei, hereby establish the following trade agreement, for the mutual defence of our people from threats both physical and economic, to promote the preservation of our separate cultures and to preserve the existence of every life on this world. 

Part 2

On the Defence of the Districts of the Rukongai 

The Organisation of the Gotei 

In order to best serve the citizens of the Rukongai, the Gotei shall divide itself into five divisions, each led by its own Taichou, who shall have operational authority, autonomy and sovereignty over all issues within the purview of his or her division, save for any decision taken at a meeting of all Taichou, henceforth known as the Taichou Council. 

The First Division shall concern itself with the relaying of pertinent information and instruction to the five divisions of the Gotei and the peoples of the Rukongai. 

The Taichou of the First Division shall be known as the Soutaichou, and will be the de jure leader of the Gotei as a whole, and of the Taichou Council. 

The Second Division shall concern itself with the health care of the peoples of Seireitei and the Rukongai, freely providing treatment and healing without discrimination between Shinigami and Rukon Citizen. 

The Third Division shall concern itself with the preservation of knowledge, and the acquisition of new, being responsible for research and investigation academic, strategic and criminal. 

The Fourth Division shall concern itself with the security of Seireitei and the detainment of those who have been deemed to be a threat to the two societies, as laid down in relevant decree or legislation. 

The Fifth Division shall concern itself with the defense of the Rukongai and its citizens from Hollow and other threats as instructed by the Citizens of the Rukongai. 

The Gotei shall be responsible for its own internal organisation. 

The Duties and Privileges of the Gotei and its Members in the Protection of the Rukognai and its Citizens. 

In order to facilitate the execution of their duties, members of the Gotei shall be allowed free passage through public areas of the four districts of the Rukongai without interference, and shall have the right to take appropriate action against any and all instances of interference. 

In order to preserve the privacy of the citizens of the Rukongai, members of the Gotei shall not set foot on private property without the permission from the property holder or a warrant signed by the Taichou of the Third Division or their delegates. 

In order to maintain the independence of the Rukongai and its citizens, the Gotei shall not interfere in its private matters unless requested to, and shall instead limit its official activities in the Rukongai solely to matters concerning the Hollow and the facilitation of its own ability to carry out its roles and responsibilities. 

In order to promote the accountability of the Gotei to the citizens of the Rukongai, they shall reserve the right to commission an investigation into any instances of unjust and unfair treatment, or maltreatment or malpractice committed by a member of the Gotei. Such investigations shall be the responsibility of the Third Division. 

Part 3

On the Provision of Supplies to Seireitei 

In reimbursement for these services, the Rukongai shall grant half of all goods produced within its borders to the Gotei. This supply of goods shall be overseen by the Third Division of the Gotei. 

The Gotei and its members shall reserve the right to, either as an institution or as a private member, request further goods beyond the required fifty percent, however only upon the provision of appropriate remittance. 

In order to preserve the security of the Gotei, admittance into Seireitei by citizens of the Rukongai shall be considered on an ad hoc basis. 

As far as I’ve read it this looks really good. Covers pretty much all the all the bases I'd think would be covered in such an agreement, The story didn’t tie the formation of the Gotei as it is now and the separation of SS and the Rukongai, but I think it makes sense. Very good job in my eyes o.ob

If there are no objections to this, then it will be considered Canon in a week's time. If you have objections, please say so and discuss it with the thread creator either in this thread or over PMs.

Bit of a question, then.

Whom would be the governing body of the Rukon Citizenry to whom the Shinigami would be held accountable by in the case of a breech of this contract? Seems it would be a wildly impossible legislation to uphold should only one of the two halves in the agreement have any sort of governance, after all, and I'm not totally certain there is anything like a 'Rukon Governor', right?

Is the goal that this legislation, over a thousand years old now, is just known by wrote to any and every Citizen, who are able to on their own approach the Soutaicho as the de facto speaker of the Citizens? Or would the Citizenry of the time have honestly been so ignorant as to demand this sort of thing be drafted up but not leave some sort of office outside the Shinigami themselves to hold said party accountable for crimes against the second part?

I've taken my time with this, reread it several times over before even attempting to voice an opinion on this either way. Both of what Haru and Cain have pointed out things that have been troubling me with this, all along. At the time this agreement was implemented, the Gotei only had one Captain and the Council had yet to be formed (clearly), this was done after to make things easier on the Shinigami to hold up their part of the agreement.

As Cain mentioned, who did Malik talk to to set this up, who's he going to speak to if this comes into question again? This is also something that hasn't been considered and so far the only character from the Rukongai whom has even tried this has been Sengoku, whom himself admitted not being qualified to do so. If anything I think to use this as it is just opens up a lot more holes and questions than it did before.

I also think that writing it up like this isn't really all that necessary. Anyone who knows well enough to read the history for the plot and settings, knows there was an agreement formed and what it entails. Doing it this way, to me, feels a bit political, something I believe we should steer clear of. More so since we have a rule against it (even though in this case it has nothing to do with real life issues XD).

I have a few more concerns or suggestions for this topic, but for right now I'll just hold off until a few more people have a chance to voice their opinions on the matter.

The short answer to pretty much everything you asked is pretty much "yes".

I believe that what defines Rukon Citizens politically is their strong belief in negative liberty (freedom from interference). As such having any body speaking for the populace de jure would be against what makes them Rukons. Sengoku, the current 'leader' of the Rukons is only there because he has the respect of many people. He doesn't have any official power. Honestly, the best I could come up with is that a series of guilds who would manage the production, but again, they can only hold power de facto, not de jure, and so they can't be mentioned officially in a document like this.

Secondly, as for every citizen knowing it, then yes, pretty much, as much as Americans know their constitution. Original written copies would exist in the Third's library, along with some of the more powerful families of the time, and reproductions would be available from numerous shops.

As for approaching the Soutaichou, who he sees is up to him, although I would expect that the Rukon would need some semblance of de facto authority, and that not any Tom, Dick or Harry could see him.

As for the final question, that is a hard one. Again, there cannot be any de jure authority within the Rukongai. Another issue is that the Shinigami have failed to uphold their end of the agreement somewhat, as aid is concentrated in the inner districts. Honestly, the only other tool the citizenry can use to air grievance is rebellion in some shape or form. I'm afraid I can't see how an official office can exist.

Regardless, I hope I was able to at least mostly satisfy your queries, and I sincerely thank you for and welcome this contribution, and any more you may have.

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Quick edit, sorry Mal, didn't see your post until after I made mine.

Forgive me but, that seems awfully one sided of you to say. I think perhaps we should get the opinions of other Rukongai members before you go ahead and answer for them all. o.o;

To take your first paragraph, I had thought that the Gotei Five was formed concurrently with the agreement. The two did happen in the same year. Although as the person who plays the Soutaichou, you would be the one to decide that.

Secondly, as I said before, the best I could think of were informal guilds. The Rukongai is giving goods as part of the agreement, so the ones who have the most control over production would be the ones who would discuss it (which may also partially be why aid is concentrated in the two production districts).

As for the necessity of this document, I'm inclined to disagree. Honestly, at the very least we need definition of how far the influence of the Shinigami over the Rukongai extends. There generally is a perceived conflict between security and freedom, so with a society which is defined by their freedom we really need to set limits. If the Shinigami can act in areas that do not concern Hollow or direct threats to themselves (such as rebels), and have influence without invitation in areas such as Rukon on Rukon theft or assault, then it does make the Rukongai's independence somewhat of a farce.

As for steering away from political matters, honestly, I think that it nigh on impossible, and undesirable. Institutions, whether formal or informal, will inevitably arise, and they will have to decide how power is distributed, and how to interact with other outside influences.

Mal! Stop ninja'ing me ;~;

Anyway, to address your most recent post, this is me asking them. The lack of de-facto authority is part of the setting, and if they had say, instead opted for a democratic government as opposed to the military government of Seiretei, then I am pretty sure that Ki would have mentioned if any such body existed in 1000nw.

Although yeah, I probably am answering for the whole Rukon faction here, which is beyond my own authority. It's probably a combination of me signing this document, and discussion not being as immediate as I had expected.

*pushes the political argument bs aside for that'll just go in circles and go against his better judgement* Sengoku and Malik are speaking now(ish) about renewing the terms of the agreement. If everyone is in agreement if we need one placed on forum somewhere, then I think we should wait until the new terms of agreement come to ahead and we can IC set what these'll be. For what new treaties we come up with may completely make everything you've wrote be for absolute nothing.

Politics is important! *slams fist on table*

But yeah, you're right. This may have value as a historical document, or as a base for your discussions, but obviously if you come up with something else it would override this.

You're saying it would falsify the Rukon's Independence if the Shinigami were to have authority to act within the Rukon to save Citizens from their own... but then what you're proposing is the concept that a group of people who have decided they will live in pure anarchy with justice decided by the individuals perceiving the situation, decided to elect for a single day one person to stand up and hash out word-for-word an agreement between the Whole Rukon and the Seireitei that all would abide? Even in this wildly fantastic world-setting, that strikes me as unbelievably fanciful.

Pretty much. I admit, this whole thing is implausible. That struck me as I was writing it. But honestly, it is the best I could come up with.

One day the Rukon citizens decided that they needed Shinigami help, they decided on a bunch of people to go and trade their goods for security, but minded to maintain their independence, to have the Shinigami as guards, rather than police. A few weeks later they came back with this.

Though I would point out that the document only requires the Rukon citizens to give half of their production (that and don't attack Shini). I've taken the setting as many Rukons are day labourers, and don't actually own the farms they work on. So, it only requires the producers to comply, who I am guessing do have some kind of collusion going on. Although I'd like the Ayakashis' input on this point. Regardless, it is (marginally) more feasible for it to work then, if the ones fulfilling the Rukon side of the contract are a relatively small number who are reaping the greatest benefit from it.

But yes, I confess, this is somewhat fanciful.

Something else you need to consider with your admission, then, is this:

Would a wise Soutaicho, knowing that the side of the agreement that gets him and his fed is in the hands of what amounts to a bunch of people with no love lost on he or his AND who intend to live in the lawless wild-west actually agree to the terms that he is not able to keep eyes on his prize?

With no ability of his own to put his direct eyes on the safety of his meals, and in fact with zero knowledge that at any time those people who supplied him last week won't this week be found guilty of some crime or other - if not just overrun by overzealous upstarts - and thus shutting off his entire food flow? Really if this is something you came up with yourself, it seems you're putting a whole lot of words into Mal's mouth, doesn't it?

Actually, here, let me be positively constructive, rather than simply pooping on your parade.

Find a place to denote where this is not an agreement between Party A: Shinigami and Party B: Rukon Citizens, but instead an agreement between Party A: Soutaicho and Party B: Some Coalition Or Other Of A Few Rukon Citizens Who Hold Land. The deal here is a cold hard law set by a specific bunch, but not specifically every Citizen ever - as long as Soutaicho has roughly as much supply now (now being at any point in time past or present) as is equal to the amount then (then being the date the agreement was made and the amount thereupon agreed), then condition for 'we the people' is met.

This way we do not create a sudden paradoxical time loop where the last several hundred years or so have been total war between Citizen and Shinigami because while wheat deliver to Seireitei was grossly undercut, it was not enough to bring minimum amounts to a negative sum versus debt owed for services rendered.

Well, in regards to your first post, whatever Mallach Dirson says in regards to that will override what I say here, although my hastily put forward theory here would be that the Shinigami would have had to find a way to feed themselves during the previous thousand years. Of course Seireitei is capable of producing some goods for itself, so I would assume that Malik would have gradually weaned Seireitei's consumption onto Rukongai produced goods as the arrangement turned out to work, more or less. But again, this is up to Mal.

Your suggestion is intriguing... could that body persist to the present day....maybe.
I'll take a look through the document and see what needs changed, then come up with a list of the changes.

Please excuse the lack of text formatting here.

To change from

We, the people of the Rukongai and of Seireitei, hereby establish the following trade agreement, for the mutual defence of our people from threats both physical and economic, to promote the preservation of our separate cultures and to preserve the existence of every life on this world.

To

We, the Association of Producers of Goods in the Rukongai and the people of Seireitei, hereby establish the following trade agreement, for the mutual defence of both our societies from threats both physical and economic, to promote the preservation of our separate cultures and to preserve the existence of every life on this world.

And from

In reimbursement for these services, the Rukongai shall grant half of all goods produced within its borders to the Gotei. This supply of goods shall be overseen by the Third Division of the Gotei.

To

In reimbursement for these services, the Assosciation shall grant half of all goods produced by its members to the Gotei. This supply of goods shall be overseen by the Third Division of the Gotei.

Howsat?

Forgive me for being a little blunt, but why are we continuing this topic when you yourself admitted that for the time being it's a waste of time when this very issue is something that is going to be addressed reasonably soon in rp?

Mostly because I'm rather enjoying this discussion, in addition to the reasons outlined in the post you referred to.

Moreover, why not? Someone took pains to drudge this up into a document.

I love politics -- you may not, but it's something you'll have to approach with some semblance of tact during role-play; whether it's overridden in the near future or not doesn't make it a waste of time.

Can't be as constructive as I'd like to be at this hour, but I was under the impression that turning over the goods was not a legal obligation.

Unless I'm missing something, there is nowhere in the official history that says a written agreement was made in 1000 nw. If anything, the suggestion is made that they came to an agreement when the Rukon split from the Shinigami. At least that's how I perceive it. In which case, as is common practice amongst revolutions and rebellions, there would have been some form of "leader" or "leaders" at the time; someone who pushed the general populace towards a goal. Said goal being the reclamation of the outlying villages.

In that respect, it would make sense for this "leader" to come to an agreement with the current leader of the Shinigami. Though probably more of a verbal agreement, maybe written, but definitely nothing so official as what you have outlined above. I see it more of a "You scratch our back, we'll scratch yours" spit-and-handshake sort of deal.

Nov 10, 2013 22:26:24 GMT -8 @smartbutt said:

Unless I'm missing something, there is nowhere in the official history that says a written agreement was made in 1000 nw. If anything, the suggestion is made that they came to an agreement when the Rukon split from the Shinigami. At least that's how I perceive it. In which case, as is common practice amongst revolutions and rebellions, there would have been some form of "leader" or "leaders" at the time; someone who pushed the general populace towards a goal. Said goal being the reclamation of the outlying villages.

In that respect, it would make sense for this "leader" to come to an agreement with the current leader of the Shinigami. Though probably more of a verbal agreement, maybe written, but definitely nothing so official as what you have outlined above. I see it more of a "You scratch our back, we'll scratch yours" spit-and-handshake sort of deal.

That's how I always viewed it as well which is why I found this unnecessary in the first place.

Nov 10, 2013 22:23:50 GMT -8 @kurisuna said:

Moreover, why not? Someone took pains to drudge this up into a document.

I love politics -- you may not, but it's something you'll have to approach with some semblance of tact during role-play; whether it's overridden in the near future or not doesn't make it a waste of time.

Can't be as constructive as I'd like to be at this hour, but I was under the impression that turning over the goods was not a legal obligation.

I'm not saying I dislike politics, I'd just rather not discuss them. It's how I was raised and it's not something I'm about to change. That said I realize ICly its something that I'm going to have to come across and that for me is fine, as I was aware of that the moment I chose to go for the rank I did, which doesn't bother me so much as it's not real world politics whatsoever.

This documentation idea however gives me a real world vibe (as stupid as that may seem) and for that reason I'd rather have no part of it. Which sadly I have little choice in seeing as my character would be a big part of it.

If you don't want to be a part of it, don't. S'really that simple. Just sit on your thumbs until version 2.0 gets discussed and you don't have to worry about hurting your own sensibilities.

I'm not about to however let anyone say what my character did or did not do without giving my own input. I'm sure you'd feel the same way, if you still had a character. Which is why I got involved in the first place, the previous post of mine was just venting I suppose so don't take it as if I'm uncomfortable.. Just annoyed XD

Regardless, Jeff while I don't much see much point in continuing, your edits do work. After reading my own timeline (something I've not done in awhile) I did have it that the Gotei 5 were formed before he went ahead and settled the terms with the Rukongai. That however, took a 5 year period and wasn't finalized until 1005 NW. Something that wasn't edited for the main history, although was approved for my own registration by the big boss at the time.

You either do what you do in character or you complain and don't. Do not do one when you mean to say you're doing the other, and if you have room to say "the edits work, my bad for not double checking my own history", say that before you give excuses as to why you're blurring the lines between reality and fiction. You've been RPing long enough to put on the big boy pants and suck it up for a few posts.

Nov 10, 2013 23:40:27 GMT -8 @hanataro said:

You either do what you do in character or you complain and don't. Do not do one when you mean to say you're doing the other, and if you have room to say "the edits work, my bad for not double checking my own history", say that before you give excuses as to why you're blurring the lines between reality and fiction. You've been RPing long enough to put on the big boy pants and suck it up for a few posts.

I admit that was well deserved. I was simply reading over the main history not my own and for that error I apologize. That said had the main history been edited to fit my approved profile, that would not have been the case XD .

Alrighty then, new point of topic.

Soutaicho really only means he gets to be Taicho one of five - the council that, by all histories, existed before the bill. Therefore, why we actin' like this is a deal between Soutaicho and some other entity/group when clearly this would have been a Taicho Council/whoever on the Rukon kinda deal?

Nov 11, 2013 0:05:11 GMT -8 @hanataro said:

Alrighty then, new point of topic.

Soutaicho really only means he gets to be Taicho one of five - the council that, by all histories, existed before the bill. Therefore, why we actin' like this is a deal between Soutaicho and some other entity/group when clearly this would have been a Taicho Council/whoever on the Rukon kinda deal?

I'd say beyond that. According to Malik's history (which I confess, I hadn't checked whilst writing) this arrangement took five years. Yoshiya's history has him involved with the separation in 500nw, and has 487nw as a start date. Whilst I'd say that on the Shinigami side, the signatories would likely be the five Taichou, there would be many, many people from both sides involved in the actual negotiations.

Let this serve as a lesson to check your facts 'fore you act as though one man bears the entire faction upon his shoulders. I see a lot of ''well, this is all for moot because I'll be redacting any treaty in the near future,'' except these things do not, in fact, revolve exclusively around Malik.

The title of Soutaichou, who by and large holds just as much power as any other Captain beyond times of war, is often unduly subjected to emphasis -- it does get frustrating, I confess.

To address Jeff's take: pitching in to your superior prior to ratifying the treaty is fine, getting involved during the actual negotations not so much if the ''realism'' you're gunning for is to have everybody's pet cat slip a word in. That's clusterfuck territory.

That is not what I was getting at.

Part of the role of a Shinigami is to support their Captain. There would be more than just the Taichou involved. Although I confess I was wrong to say "many, many".